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S meter and ATT

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2024 5:58 pm
by Tony EI7BMB
Hi Guys , just installed an 18db masthead pre amp/band pass filter for my 6 meter set up. I notice when I select an attenuator level that the S meter reading actually goes up and not down as I expected. Is this normal behaviour or am I missing something ? Thanks in advance

Re: S meter and ATT

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2024 7:10 pm
by w-u-2-o
What is the noise figure of the preamp at 50MHz? How much feedline loss is there between the output of the preamp and the input of the ANAN? Is the S-meter reading noise level or signal level when you notice this behavior?

Re: S meter and ATT

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2024 7:46 pm
by Tony EI7BMB
Hi Scott, afraid I do not have a noise figure for the LNA , the spec just says "low noise" . The feedline loss is 0.5 db . I can see this behaviour whether the masthead LNA is switched on or off . To give an example the noise floor is currently showing S2 -114 dbm and iif i select S-ATT 30 the s meter shows S6 at -91.7 . Hope I'm explaining this OK

Re: S meter and ATT

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2024 10:16 pm
by w-u-2-o
What is going on is that by adding attenuation you are increasing the noise figure (NF) of the receiver. NF is the amount of internally generated noise in the receiver channel prior to detection.

In a perfect world there would only be thermal noise, which is always -174 dBm/Hz. In a 2.7KHz passband (remember, the S-meter is measuring noise in the entire passband, so 2700Hz worth of noise) there would be -174 + 10Log(2700) of noise, or -174 + 34 = -140dBm (about S1).

In the real world the radio adds it's own internally generated noise from both passive components like attenuators and active components like LNAs, preamps, and other amplifier stages.

With the 6M LNA turned off, the NF of our radios is right around 15dB. With the 6M LNA turned on it's closer to 1dB.

Sadly, we'll never see that level of performance (only 1 or 15dB added to the thermal noise floor) except on the test bench because the atmospheric noise at the antenna is already worse than that. However, by adding attenuation in the receiver path, especially prior to the first amplifier, and especially a large amount of attenuation (e.g. 30dB) you will definitely see an increase in the noise floor, and this is totally normal and expected.

Note that calculating the receiver noise figure is not at all straightforward. Each passive and active stage must be analyzed using something called "cascade analysis". The first amplifier in the cascade will dominate the results. Attenuation prior to that amp will have moderate influence. Everything after the first amp will have minimal influence.

There are a lot of cascade analysis calculator web sites out there. I like this one because it is quite comprehensive: https://www.qorvo.com/design-hub/design-tools/interactive/cascade-calculator

Note that with your masthead LNA you'll want to disable the internal 6M LNA in the ANAN. Just out of curiosity, what make/model is the masthead LNA?

Re: S meter and ATT

Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2024 8:29 am
by Tony EI7BMB
Thanks for the excellent explanation Scott. I've had the internal LNA off for some time as an experiment , doing some not so scientific tests with my local beacon. I really bought the unit as a band pass filter to see if I could negate some of the local noise sources. It has been of some benefit but alas most of the qrn seems to be in band. Here is a link to the unit I am using https://antennas-amplifiers.com/6m-bpf-filter-low-noise-amp-qro-relay-eme2-50n/

Re: S meter and ATT

Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2024 1:52 pm
by w-u-2-o
Tony--the label shows that unit uses the same 6M LNA that is in all ANAN models, the PGA-103+, and claims a NF of 0.8dB

https://www.minicircuits.com/pdfs/PGA-103+.pdf

Re: S meter and ATT

Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2024 4:38 pm
by Tony EI7BMB
ah excellent info, thanks Scott.